FAMILY

The season finale of "The Talk" is all about family. Part season retrospective, part celebration, part reflection on the good, the bad, the ugly, the messy, the chaotic, the joyful, the tearful, the hopeful, and the redemptive aspects of family. You’ll hear about biological families, chosen families, adoptive, blended, fragmented, and radically remixed families.

New guests, old guests, and interviews with kids!

You can find "The Talk" on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, and If you'd like to contribute to the conversation by sharing your story about one of our episode topics, you can do so by sending a voice memo or an email to thetalk@thetalkthepodcast.com. 

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Darcy Morehouse: We have this big, ridiculous blended family. Sometimes when I tell people that we have five kids, they kind of give me a look like they're not sure what's wrong with us. So I usually just say, "Oh, no, no, no, we're not, like, the evangelical homeschooling version of five kids, we're the white trash version of five kids." So there's like baby daddies and baby mamas all over the place and it gets complicated. It gets really, really complicated sometimes. It's hard enough trying to co-parent with one other person that you're married to, so imagine throwing in three additional parents plus their significant others, and it gets really messy really quickly.

You're listening to "The Talk": a podcast where we explore the possibility of creating a radical new communication environment between parents and children, an environment that's open, honest, and candid and where nothing is off-limits.

Melanie: Through my 20s and early 30s, family was not the most important thing to me, and I had fought really hard to get out of this toxic family structure where family was upheld above anything else, to many people's detriment. And then when I got married, my husband's family has a pretty healthy dynamic of the importance of family. And it's been a real learning curve for me to take from that what serves me and to build a family unit with my husband and myself and now our daughter, what that means to us and elevating that to the level of importance that I want it to be while still not giving in to this "Family is the absolute most important thing" mentality that I struggled with for a long time.

Hi, everybody, it's Jeremy. OK, so way back in August of 2020, as I was conceptualizing and planning out "The Talk", I wanted to tackle all these tough topics over the course of the season and then wrap it all up with a big old feel-good celebration of family. Take a little break from the tricky conversations and just have a party. The thing is, family is pretty complicated and everyone feels differently about their family of origin. Some families are a place of haven and comfort and trust and fun, and others are places of trauma and hurt and manipulation and fear. If we're lucky, our family members are people we can go to when it feels like the rest of the world just doesn't understand us. But even if that's not the case, we do have the option of choosing our families, of trying to find and create a family that loves and serves those in it in the ways we always wished ours had done for us. So today, you're going to hear a bit of a mix, you'll hear from some familiar voices and some new voices about the good, the bad, the ugly, the messy, the chaotic, the joyful, the tearful, the hopeful, and the redemptive aspects of family. You'll hear about biological families, chosen families, adoptive, blended, fragmented, and radically remixed families. And to start us off, let's hear from someone in my family, my sister, Darcy.

Darcy Morehouse: I've noticed that a lot of blended families have this big underlying tension that's just kind of hanging around from all the different dynamics going on and the kids pick up on that. We think we're good at hiding that stuff, but we're really terrible at it. The kids feel that. And it's hard. It really, really is. But sometimes having a broken family, which is a terrible term, by the way, sometimes having that set up can also be kind of great. I mean, we get a break from our kids at least once every week, so that's a plus. And really, if you're working with them and not fighting against them, then having those extra parents turns out to be really helpful sometimes.

Jeremy: I feel like you all have been... or it seems like you've been able to manage that aspect of co-parenting with exes and so many various parental parties really well, and I'm curious, does that feel to you like kind of a lucky break or how do you explain that in your case?

D.M.: I know that we're pretty fortunate in our situation, but also we've been really intentional about it. We talked to a lot of people and got a lot of really great advice early on.

Jeremy: Yeah. Like what kind of advice?

D.M.: One piece that really stuck with us was actually from, of all people, our family lawyer. We spent a lot of money on lawyers and therapy for a few years there. But he told us that it's important for everyone involved to remember the importance of loving the kid more than hating the ex. And I think that a lot of parents get stuck on that. I see a lot of people getting caught up in this competitiveness with their ex or they have this weird desire to see them fail, which, when you think about it, makes no sense whatsoever because wishing for my kid's parent to fail is really just wishing heartache on my kid. And I don't want that for them. I want my kid to have parents and adults in their lives that are healthy and happy and well-adjusted and balanced, because that's the best thing for my kid. We have this idea sometimes that stability means consistency. And I think that that's wrong. I think that real stability means that my kid can feel safe and secure and loved and supported, whether they're at dad's house, at mom's house, at grandma's house, at Titi's house, wherever they are, they have that sense of security.

Jeremy: Yeah. Which is consistency, but that consistency has so much less to do with physical surroundings and a lot more to do with emotional support and communication between all of the parental figures

D.M.: Kids can really handle a lot of changes. They can handle a lot of upheaval as long as their support system is solid. And on the other hand, you can have somebody who is raised their entire life living in the same town, in the same house, with the same two parents, and they can still experience huge instability.

Jeremy: Yes, yes. And that's the thing about moralizing this or that family structure. Like you mentioned before, the term broken family or broken families, and that's what's happening there. Just the fact that that terminology exists is a moralization of that structure. And we see that moral judgment with queer parents. We see it with kids of polyamorous parents. We see it with single parenthood. And it's just fundamentally wrong because like you said, there is equal opportunity for toxicity and trauma and dysfunction and neglect and whatever in any family structure. And that includes heterosexual, church-going, two-and-a-half kid, white picket fence American dream family structures.

D.M.: So I guess at the end of the day, my kids are actually really fortunate because they get two sets of families to love them. And a child's capacity to receive love is not finite, it's not pie. And if my kid is with me 50 percent of the time, it also doesn't mean they don't get just 50 percent of my love. They get 100 percent of it. I love them 100 percent, whether they're with me 100 percent or 50 percent or 10 percent. And the same goes for the other parent and the spouses and the grandparents. More parents just mean more people to love on this kid. And that's really what's important, right? It's complicated and it's messy and and it's beautiful and it's true.

Darcy and her husband Kyle were guests on our episode about school. I've had so many great guests throughout this season, the people that I've learned a lot from and really enjoyed talking with. Many of my guests are parents themselves. And coming up in a sec, I talked to some of their kids. But first, a little clip retrospective of some meaningful moments on past episodes of "The Talk".

Craig Yaddaw: At some point in time, each child is going to decide, am I going to emulate my parents or am I going to do something really different?

Julia Feldman: Kids are going to test boundaries always. And that's healthy, right? They're testing boundaries with us because we're safe and trusted and loving and they want to do that with us before they enter the world and try testing boundaries with other people. So regardless of what you're talking about, you're going to get pushback sometimes.

Matt Hinkley: One of the things we repeat to our daughter all the time is, you know, look, it's our job to make sure that you grow up safe and healthy and smart and kind. Those are like our four things that we say "These these are our big jobs with you." How do you guide that properly? When do you know to just get out of the way?

Yolanda Williams: Where are you from? Where is your family from? What are the traditions of your family's country of origin and kind of going back and looking at that and being like, "How can I incorporate this into my family now?"

Justin Guarini: There's so much wealth in my relationship with my father and it's taken me forty-two years or 40 years to recognize that.

Shari Crawford: Kids are such individuals. They experience and observe and remember childhood events from their unique perspectives. I remember an event from a parent's point of view, and what they remember isn't always what I expect.

Allie: When you're a little kid, your parents are your whole life. It's the center of your world. You want nothing more than to know everything about them.

Clayton Craddock: I want them to do whatever they want to do that makes them happy and excited.

Shakina Nayfack: You know, no one ever told me that I was fine just the way I was, and even that can be tricky because sometimes as a trans person you hear that and you just want to be like "fuck you. I don't want to be this way. I want you to be fine with the way I want to be."

Dr. Emer O'Toole: What do I think is a boon to society? What would I like to pass down to my children? What would I like to see them passing down to their children?

Cindy Wang Brandt: The one thing that they do really, really well, my parents, is that they've always been quite unconditional in their support of our pursuit of things we love and want to do in life. And that's been especially precious in adulthood.

Yolanda Williams: My daughter Gia was definitely an unexpected gift in my life. I had her when I was about thirty seven and I had never planned to have children. She is definitely someone that came into my life when she should have, definitely a blessing. Her name actually means "God's gracious gift" because having her in my life is definitely something that's making me level up as a person.

Leo Wolters-Tejera: If anything, we're going to err on the side of being a messy, safe space as opposed to a tidy, sterile space.

Jeremy: Hi, this is Jeremy. Who am I talking to right now?

Willow: Willow.

Jeremy: How old are you, Willow?

Willow: Eight.

Jeremy: Eight. That's awesome. I'm thirty-nine. First will you tell me a list of who's in your family? Will you tell me everybody who's in your family?

Willow: Mommy, Daddy, Wren, Violet, Grandma and Papa, Grandma and Granddad, Auntie and Raoul, and David and Rebecca. 

Jeremy: Ok, do you have any pets?

Willow: Yes.

Jeremy: Yeah. Do you feel like your pets are part of your family or not really? Or kind of?

Willow: We think they're a part of our family.

Jeremy: Yeah, we have one fish and his name is Spike Jr.

Willow: We have two kitties. And last year, we got our first named Joey. I was very excited. Mommy just told me and I was like [Gasp]. And I forgot when we got Cricket.

Jeremy: Wait, your cat is named Cricket? I love that name. I wonder if you ever would think about getting a pet cricket and naming it Cat. What do you think?

Willow: I think we have enough pets for now.

Jeremy: That's good. That's a good thing to know. I wanted to know, are there any rules in your family?

Willow: I do not know any rules.

Jeremy: Does it feel like you sort of have some freedom and you can pick what you do most of the time?

Willow: Mostly I just do what I do always. Every day is new because every day I do something different.

Jeremy: Wow, that's a great perspective on life. Every day is new and every day you can do something different.

OK, so that's Willow and I spoke with her parents, Alan and Tom, as part of our Bodies episode. Also as part of that episode, I talked with Lori Mannette about her adoption process and how her kiddo Charlie came into her life. Here's Charlie.

Charlie M.: Hi.

Jeremy: Hi, Charlie! Who would you say, within the house, is kind of in charge? 

C.M.: Mom, mostly. She's the parent.

Jeremy: She is a parent, that's true. Are parents always the people who are in charge in a family?

C.M.: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah. Well, what does that mean? What does it mean that she's in charge? What kinds of things does she do or say that makes you feel like she's the person that's in charge in your family?

C.M.:Like videogame time sometimes. I like to play videogames.

Jeremy: So you're saying that she's the one who kind of makes the rules for the family and that's kind of what makes her in charge?

C.M.: Yeah, mostly.

Jeremy: Are there any rules that you make for yourself, do you think?

C.M.: Not really.

Jeremy: Not really? Do you ever get frustrated with any of those rules that your mom has at home or that you have in your house?

C.M.: I mean, I like to play video games and I would like to play video game all day, every day. 

Jeremy: Do you ever get frustrated or a little sad or annoyed when the video game time is done and you're right in the middle of a level or something?

C.M.: Uh huh. I get so annoyed.

Jeremy: You do?

C.M.:  I say, "Ugh! I want to finish this! I'm not done." 

Jeremy: If you're feeling frustrated or sad either about the rules in your house or about anything, do you feel like your mom listens to you if you express your frustration to her?

C.M.: Um, yeah.

Jeremy: And she kind of helps you to work through those frustrated or sad emotions sometimes?

C.M.:  Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah. Do you do that with her too? Does she ever tell you if she's feeling frustrated or annoyed or angry or sad and and do you help her through that too? 

C.M.:Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah? What are some ways that you think you help your mom through those kinds of things?

C.M.: In traffic, she always gets frustrated in traffic. So I say, "It's just some traffic. It'll just be done in a couple of minutes. Just be calm."

Jeremy: Does she say similar things to you? If you're frustrated or annoyed, does she say stuff like that, like, "Oh, this won't last. You won't feel like this forever. This will be over in a little bit." Does she say stuff like that?

C.M.:  Sometimes, yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah, that's awesome. Do you ever really disagree with your mom about the rules? Say that she says that you get a certain amount of video game time. Do you ever really disagree and say, "but I should get more?"

C.M.: I'm always disagreeing. I want 17 million hours every day.

Jeremy: Woah, that's a really long time every day.

C.M.: Yes.

Jeremy: Have you ever made a formal proposal? Like, "Mom, I would like to propose that we extend my video game time by 17 hours." Would she be open to a proposal like that?

C.M.: No.

Lori: We have talked about how to write a persuasive essay and why that's important so that you can do things like that. 

Jeremy: Maybe you should write a persuasive essay to your mom about your video game time.

C.M.: That may work.

Jeremy: Do you think it would work?

C.M.: Probably not.

Jeremy: Definitely not? Charlie, I'm so happy that that we got to talk today. I really appreciate it.

C.M.: It's nice to talk.

Jeremy: It is? 

C.M.: It's actually nice.

Jeremy: Good, I agree. What do you have going on the rest of the day, Charlie? 

C.M.: Just in my room playing, have a break.

Jeremy: I think you should work on a persuasive essay

C.M.: That's even harder.

Jeremy: It might really pay off.

C.M.: I guess. 

Jeremy: Have a great rest of the day and good luck on your persuasive essay. Bye.

C.M.: Bye.

Not only has creating this podcast allowed me to connect with people in a wonderful way, but I've also learned a lot. Speaking to people like Dr. Patricia Speier for our episode about non-verbal communication got me really thinking about the ways that I interact with my kids.

Dr. Patricia Speier: There's an optimal way to work with most feelings states with anybody, actually. The feeling state has to be adequately acknowledged. So the child has to see that if they're sad, the parent's sad, but that the parent is able to bear it and then the parent has to, after really acknowledging the sadness, tell the kid in some way, especially nonverbally, that it's going to be all right.

Hearing from Dr. Emer O'Toole about gender deeply impressed upon me the value of self-work and self-education as an integral element of creating a communicative environment for my kids that is open and welcoming

Dr. Emer O'Toole: To be raised by people who have a handle on what sex is, what gender is, and how they operate socially and culturally in our society, that's just such a blessing. Educating yourself on this as a parent is an enormous gift to your child. You're just opening up a world of possibilities to them that could be limited otherwise.

And one of my favorite moments of having my own thought processes challenged came in a conversation with Parenting Forward's Cindy Wang Brandt. When I let my cynical side get the best of me.

Jeremy: If we can bring them up with exposure and with healthy perspectives on all these things, then we're breaking those generational patterns that we feel we have baggage from. And who knows what kind of baggage we're going to send out on our kids that we don't even realize, but if we're aware and we're trying to make those changes there, that's the fundamental place, I think.

Cindy Wang Brandt: Yeah, that's exactly it. I just want to comment on you saying who knows what kind of baggage we're putting on our kids. And I feel like people often say that, like "We're just messing our kids in our own unique way." I don't know, that feels a little pessimistic, to me. As if we can actually do better than the last generation, that we're always just perpetuating a cycle of different kinds of dysfunction. And I do think that we can do better. I do think we can give our kids less baggage than we were given. So, yeah, I'm very hopeful. 

Jeremy: Well, thank you for saying that because I absolutely am guilty of thinking that way. So thank you for saying that. I appreciate that.

C.W.B.: Yeah. It's not inevitable that our kids are going to have a different kind of baggage than we do. We can help them be resource enough to be a healthy person. And that's the goal.

Thanks to all my guests throughout the season for allowing me so many opportunities for honest self-reflection. In our episode about leaders, I spoke with Jane Burgess about growing up as the child of a career politician. We also talked about her kids, including her son, Charlie, who is 10.

Charlie B.: Hello.

Jeremy: Hi Charlie, this is Jeremy. I was wondering if you have thought about whether people get to choose who's in their family. Do we get to choose who's in our family in general?

C.B.: No, we don't get to choose who's in our family.

Jeremy: What about when your parents got married? They chose to be part of each other's family then, right?

C.B.: Oh, yeah.

Jeremy: But you mean you don't get to choose who your parents are, choose who your brothers and sisters are, that kind of thing. Right?

C.B.: No, I don't get to choose who my parents and brothers and sisters are. 

Jeremy: Yeah. Would that be interesting if you could?

C.B.: Yes, it would be interesting.

Jeremy: Yeah, I think you're right. Are you pretty happy with the number of people in your family? Do you wish there were more?

C.B.: I'm happy with the number of people in the family.

Jeremy: You are. What do you think it would feel like if you had 12 brothers and sisters?

C.B.: I think it would be a lot of fun. 

Jeremy: You do? If you had 12 brothers and sisters, what would your role in all the brothers and sisters be? Would you be like the leader or would you be like the funny one? What would you feel your role would be?

C.B.: My role would be a leader.

Jeremy: It would. Ok, are you a leader in your family already or with your friends, even?

C.B.: I am a leader with my brothers sometimes.

Jeremy: Oh, interesting. Tell me about that. How are you a leader with your brother?

C.B.: Because sometimes when I do something, he does the exact same thing that I do.

Jeremy: Does that ever happen in reverse, where he does something and then you do the exact same thing he does?

C.B.: No, not really.

Jeremy: Do you think he ever watches something you do and then does it and then thinks maybe it wasn't such a good idea?

C.B.: Yes, I do think that sometimes, yeah.

Jeremy: Do you have any examples of that?

C.B.: I can't really think of an example right now.

Jeremy: That's fine. I have one more question for you. Do you think that adults should tell kids what to do most of the time?

C.B.: No, I think that kids can decide what they do.

Jeremy: Do you think that kids should tell adults what to do?

C.B.: Yes.

Jeremy: Interesting. If you could make one rule for your parents, what would it be?

C.B.: The role would be to let me have unlimited screen time all day and let me stay out as late as I want and break all the rules that already existed.

Jeremy: That sounds like it would be really fun. If that rule were instituted and you could stay out as late as you wanted to. Where would you go?

C.B.: Probably to a Mets game.

Jeremy: A solo Mets game. You could eat 100 hotdogs if you wanted to, drink all the soda you wanted, and then take the train home by yourself, right?

C.B.: Yeah.

Jeremy: Awesome! Thanks, Charlie.

Next up, Lincoln, he's five.

Jeremy: Can you tell me something that's really fun about your family?

Lincoln: Bee swarm simulator!

Jeremy: Bees swarm simulator? Oh, no, that sounds terrifying.

Lincoln: No, you can hatch bees that usually turn into a basic bee. 

Jeremy: OK. And then what do you do with the bees? Do they help you do things or do you help them get to their hive or anything like that?

Lincoln: You get pollen and when your pollen bag is full, you can go back to your hive and make honey.

Jeremy: Oh, that's amazing. And then do they share the honey with you after they make it?

Lincoln: Nah. 

Jeremy: I heard from your mom that you get to live in two different houses, sometimes at the house with your mom and sometimes at the house with your dad. Is that right?

Lincoln: Well, today I just came to my mommy's house.

Jeremy: You did? Do you feel lucky that you get to have two different houses and two different rooms and stuff? Is that fun sometimes?

Lincoln: Yeah.

Jeremy: Yeah? Do you have any other friends, Lincoln, who also have two different houses, with their mom and their dad, or something like that?

Lincoln: I am the only person I know of.

Jeremy: Really? Do you ever leave something at one house and you're like, "Oh, rats, I forgot that thing over there."

Lincoln: Yup!

Jeremy: You do? You've had that happen? And then you have to wait till you go back to get it?

Lincoln: Yeah. 

Jeremy: If you're at your mom's, do you sometimes miss your dad? And if you're at your dad's, do you sometimes miss your mom?

Lincoln: Yup!

Jeremy: Yeah. And then do you talk to your mom or your dad about that? Do you tell them "I really miss my mom right now" or "I really miss my dad right now?"

Lincoln: Yeah. 

Jeremy: Do they usually try to help you feel better?

Lincoln: Well, yeah.

Jeremy: If your mom or your dad are ever feeling frustrated or sad, do you try to help them too? What kinds of things would you say to your mom if she was feeling really sad and she told you she was feeling sad? Would you say, "Cheer up, there's a chicken on your head?"

Lincoln: No. I love snuggles! 

Jeremy: You do? Would you offer to give a snuggle to your mom or your dad if they told you they were feeling sad?

Lincoln: Well, I'm going to do that right now.

Jeremy: That sounds like a great idea. Lincoln, thanks for talking to me. I'm going to go and I really hope that I get to see you really soon, OK?

Lincoln: Bye! Alright, it's over!

Jeremy: Violet, are you there? Is that you?

Violet: Yeah.

Jeremy:  Hi. Do you and your sisters ever play tricks on your parents?

Violet: Yes.

Jeremy: Yes? Can you tell me about one?

Violet: Oh, there's one where Willow took Daddy's spatula and cut the butter into three pieces and then ran quickly away with Daddy not noticing anything.

Jeremy: Oh, my gosh. What did he say when he finally saw the butter?

Violet: Well, then I heard that Willow told me that he did that like that morning.

Jeremy: Willow was telling me that sometimes you and she fight with each other. Does that happen sometimes?

Violet: Um, yeah. 

Jeremy: Yeah? I have three sisters and sometimes we used to fight with each other a lot.

Violet: Really?

Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. We used to fight with each other a lot. And I was wondering, when you and Willow are fighting, do your parents try to help you to to listen to each other a little bit better?

Violet: Nearly every single time.

Jeremy: Nearly every single time? Does that help?

Violet: No, really. Every single time. 

Jeremy: Every single time. What kinds of things do they say to you? If you're fighting with Willow, what would your mom or your dad maybe say to you to help you out?

Violet: I don't really remember.

Jeremy: That's OK. I was wondering if your sisters are ever feeling sad or frustrated, do you ever try to talk to them and help them feel better?

Violet: Most of the time, no. But sometimes yes.

Jeremy: Sometimes yes. When you do try to help them feel better, what kinds of things do you say to them? Do you offer to give them a hug or anything like that?

Violet: Usually I offer to play Nintendo or something.

Jeremy: Does she feel good that you offered to help her, that you asked her if she wanted to?

Violet: She acts like she doesn't really care? I don't know.

Jeremy: Yeah, sometimes does it sometimes feel like it's a little tough to be a kid or is it pretty fun and easy to be a kid?

Violet: It's fun and easy.

Jeremy: That was Violet, whose sister Willow, we heard from earlier.

One of my most cherished interviews of this season was with the writer Topher Payne, who struck me as being able to hold and articulate some of the complexities of being part of a family in a really beautiful way.

Topher Payne: I had very, very attentive and wonderful parents. And I tell my mother all the time, "You got so much right." I was raised in the community of faith that was supportive and loving and in safe neighborhoods where I could ride my bicycle. They got so many things right, both within their control and without

Topher grew up in Mississippi and later moved to Atlanta. And despite all the love and nurturing he received from parents he clearly cherishes and adores, they as products of their own time and place, were unable to equip him with all the skills he would need as he grew up and out into the world.

Topher Payne: There are a lot of things that I learned from observing my parents' marriage that has absolutely held true in my own. But when we talk about that concept of bodily autonomy, no one taught me what consent was. No one modeled for me what a loving and positive relationship was going to look like in my life.

For a period of time after coming out, Topher didn't communicate with his parents. And even when they asked to come and take care of him during a course of cancer treatment, he understood the boundary that he needed to create with them. During that time, Topher found and embraced a different type of family.

Topher Payne: The generation of men who were offering me the benefit of their limited experience were men who had survived a plague and that became a very tight-knit community. And so what I saw was a group that led with positivity, with celebration of self, and also a lot of people that did not have any relationship whatsoever with their family of origin, that had been cut off years and years before

Topher's parents did become part of his life again. And as I've been trying to articulate why it really is that I love Topher's story so much, I think it's that he's able to love and embrace and find joy and balance and depth and meaning in both his family of origin and a chosen family, and to adapt what my sister Darcy said at the beginning of this episode, the more people we have in our lives to love on us, the better off we are. Love is not pie. There's more than enough to go around if we leave ourselves open to it.

Another conversation I really loved was with Leo Wolters-Tejera. It was a conversation about gender, but because of Leo and my shared background as church kids, it also became about a lot more than that. Leo and their wife Elle have a radical remix of a family,

Leo Wolters-Tejera: So I have five kids. One of my biggest pet peeves is when people ask my wife, "Which ones are yours," right? And I just want to start off by saying I have been peed on and pooped on and threw up on them and bit and compared to Hitler and disavowed by all of them. So I'm pretty sure they're all mine.

One of the most poignant parts of my conversation with Leo was about parental culpability. We were essentially trying to ask how much can we hold our parents responsible for the actions and methods they used in good faith, which nonetheless may have caused us trauma or pain?

L.W.T.: People have always told me, "Why don't you just cut your family off" or "Why don't you just take a step back from your family?" I'm like "You don't understand." So they did some not great things, but it came out of a system that they were taught. And to be fair, on a note of parenting, I wouldn't want to parent myself. That would be terrifying. I challenged everything my parents knew, you know what I mean?

I think it's really important to acknowledge that any person who feels that their parents were less than perfect must decide for themselves how much and in what ways to hold them accountable. But trying to acknowledge that most parents do the best they can for their children with the knowledge and resources they have and extending forgiveness when we are able can maybe also help us forgive ourselves when we feel that we are failing or falling short as parents. As a follow-up to my conversation with Leo, I reached out to their son, Al, who's a senior in college. 

Jeremy: I had a really great conversation with Leo a couple of months ago. And during that conversation, Leo described trying to set a tone in your family as being I'm going to quote them here, "A messy, safe space as opposed to a tidy, sterile space." And I wonder if you kind of agree with that characterization. It sounds like that resonates with you.

Al Tejera: Oh, definitely. It is a messy space. I would say that is pretty accurate.

Jeremy: In what ways is it messy and in what ways is it safe?

A.T.: So I guess a lot of us are really unique and really different and pretty chaotic. There's a lot of chaotic energy, I guess, in our family. Everyone sort of fighting or competing for attention because we have a lot of siblings around here. But at the same time, we have a stream of pretty open communication. And that's what makes it a safe space because everyone is constantly validating and loving each other. 

Jeremy: Yeah. How long have Leo and Melbourne been in your life? How long have you been with them?

A.T.: Wow, it's been a while. Since 2013, maybe, so it's been a bit.

Jeremy: Yeah. And so that style of open, transparent communication, is that something that is kind of really natural for you, or is that something that you learned being around them? How did that play out for you?

A.T.: Oh, yeah, Leo definitely taught me how to be more open since they're so outspoken. I definitely learned a lot from them because in our family, I think we were a bit more quiet until Leo came in because they're so extroverted compared to the rest of our family.

Jeremy: Does that feel unique, that sort of transparency and openness and communication, to you? Do you have other friends whose families, that's not the way their communication is? And does that feel like a unique thing to your family?

A.T.: I think it definitely does. We're not really afraid of shying away from topics that other families might not talk about. 

Jeremy: What's the benefit of that?

A.T.: It's definitely really nice to be able to be on a  friendly level with your parents, even though they are still authority figures. It's nice to be able to talk about things that maybe you wouldn't even talk about in school or it's extremely educational and it provides a growing experience to be able to talk about what's on your mind.

Jeremy: Can you think of an example of something that is a really open conversation at home, but might have been met with some resistance or was just not part of conversation in school?

A.T.: Yeah, I mean, definitely things about mental health we're pretty open about in our family. There's sort of a stigma attached to it in educational settings.

Jeremy: Absolutely there is. Yeah.

A.T.: So we definitely have pretty frank conversations about mental health and medication and counseling. I thought that was like a really good learning experience for later because that's that's an important part of your life that you're going to have to deal with.

Jeremy: You mentioned before feeling like there's maybe somewhat of a peer relationship between you and Leo and Elle, but I wonder how you feel your relationship with them has changed over the years as you get older?

A.T.: Yeah, it's definitely become a lot more peer-like, as you said. When you talk openly with your family, it gives you the space to be able to get to know your parents more than just like a robot, I'd say, like the robot that takes care of you. So when you actually have conversations or start conversations with your parents, they're usually a lot more open than you'd think. I guess at first I was a little bit scared of that, even though they're pretty open. I've been a bit shy in the past, but then getting to know my parents, just as people, I learned that I can have a more friendly relationship with them and just learn from them. 

Jeremy: It not only does it feel good to have that peer relationship, but it also helped me to kind of understand myself better as I got older and started to have like sort of adult experiences and like reflect on my own reactions to things in my own sort of inclinations. Knowing my parents and having that kind of relationship with them helped me to understand myself better, too.

A.T.: Oh, yeah, definitely. I think about how my mom had me at the same age that I am right now. So it's really interesting to reflect on the decisions that they made and what you can do going forward based on how you know them as a person.

Ugh, I really loved that conversation with Al. OK, I have one more conversation for you, and that's with someone very special to "The Talk." Mackenzie Yaddaw is our post-production assistant and also my second cousin. She's just about to graduate high school and it's been great seeing her grow from an awesome baby to an awesome child to an awesome teenager and young adult human. I wanted to hear from Mackenzie because she's at a point of transition in her life, one that's familiar to many of us, where she's going to be leaving her family of origin for the first time.

Jeremy: How does it feel to be at this point where you've been with your family since the day you were born and now you have this prospect in front of you of being on your own?

Mackenzie Yaddaw: I mean, I think that universally a terrifying experience, but my parents and our family, in general, have really set me up pretty well for independence. My parents have always encouraged to identify myself through my own means and to chase my own goals, which helps that I'm like very type and goal-oriented but I've always been given that freedom to figure out what interests me and how to go about that my own way. I mean, my school too, being an all-girls school, has really focused on leadership. I've always been given leadership opportunities, so I guess I've always been geared towards that goal of independence.

Jeremy: You mentioned as we were texting the other day that talking about independence is something that is kind of intimidating to you. Can you explain what you meant?

M.Y.: I mean, I think that's universal for all kids who are going into college because I talk to my friends and we're like "I think we are pretty well set up." But then these challenges that are unique to college that I just, by nature of it, I don't have the experience to do that yet. Like, I was just thinking the other day where I was like, "I don't know how to take myself to the hospital." And things that I just don't have to do because I live at home with my parents at the moment. So the idea of having to do that eventually, like the very innocuous things of adulthood that I just, by virtue of that, I don't have to do yet.

Jeremy: As you have been looking at colleges, applying to colleges, visiting colleges and stuff like that, what kind of influence or, I guess, input have your parents had or wanted to have? Have they had very strong opinions about where you attend or anything like that, or have they let most of those decisions go to you?

M.Y.: No, most of it has been me, actually. I like picking colleges that fit what I want to go into and deciding what I want to go into. They've helped me go through lists and find those resources to find which colleges I want to go to. But really picking and exploring websites and things has been all up to me.

Jeremy: Have there been times when you wished you had a little bit more guidance or did it feel good to have that freedom to just explore in the way that you wanted to when it came to colleges?

M.Y.: I mean, it is scary because I have to trust my own authority. I think it's always intimidating. But I guess it feels good to have that control over my future and know that I'm picking the things that I'm going to have to live with rather than having somebody set that up for me.

Jeremy: But it also means that if you don't like those decisions down the road, there's no one else to blame for it.

M.Y.: Yes. If I fail, it's my fault, absolutely.

Jeremy: And you have three younger siblings. What are they thinking and talking about with you about you leaving home? Are they telling you that they're going to miss you or anything like that or that they're going to take over your room immediately as soon as you're gone or anything like that?

M.Y.: My sister wants my closet. Day one, she's moving in here. But my brothers, I think it hit them when we started touring college and we were looking at a campus on campus. They were like "Oh, no, this is going to happen." So they're not thrilled. Yeah, they're very sad.

Jeremy: Would you just reflect briefly on the way you feel your relationship with your parents has changed maybe over the last ten years?

M.Y.: And yes, that's actually something we've been exploring in writing class, and I've especially been talking about this with a lot with my dad. My parents' role when I was a child was guiding me and watching me grow and leading me towards the directions that I already pointed myself in, giving my giving me the tools to go that way. And now, I think my parents have really enjoyed letting me go there and watching me do the things with the tools that they've given me. So I mean, my dad and I now get to talk about my GSA and things like that. We just had a really interesting conversation about WW2 and Jethro Tull and all these different things. I think it's... I can't really speak for them, but it's pretty interesting for me to now be able to approach that relationship from a little bit different angle and get to really use the products of that guidance that I've been given.

Jeremy: I remember that stage, too, with my parents and feeling like, "Oh my gosh, I'm becoming friends with my parents." And it was much more of a peer relationship that developed. I found it to be really wonderful. It was something that I don't think I expected before it happened when I was around the age you are.

M.Y.: It's really odd to see my dad be proud of the things I'm doing on my own. That's really cool.

Jeremy: Yeah. A lot of people, when they go off to college or when they leave the home that they grew up in, it's seen as this big moment of freedom. And that word "freedom," I think, is a really important word to a lot of people when it comes to that. So I'm curious how you feel about that. Do you feel like this is a moment of impending freedom to you?

M.Y.: I mean, I think I have a lot of freedom now, but I am kind of intrigued about that, because I live in such an environment that's influenced by other people, like "Can I live? Can I manage my own life?" And that freedom to see if I can live up to the challenge of living alone or with a roommate, but getting to manage my own space and have a lot of control over that, I'm actually kind of excited by that.

So that's it. In the immortal words of Lincoln, "It's over!" Thanks for joining us for this episode and this season of "The Talk." I'm going to be honest with you and say that I'm not quite sure when, and even if, we'll be back. But I want to express my deep gratitude to all of you for your support and listenership and kind words along the way this past year. I want to say thanks to all my wonderful guests for this episode: Mackenzie, Al, Willow, the Charlies, Violet, Lincoln, and to my sister Darcy, and to everyone who has sent voice memos throughout the season. Thanks to my parents and to my uncle Ron, who always asked tough probing questions because he wanted to get to know the "real me." Thanks to Dana Gertz, who created the original artwork for "The Talk," and to Mackenzie Yaddaw, who is our post-production assistant. You can find out more about all our guests, listen to previous episodes, find transcripts, and buy tote bags and stickers at Thetalkthepodcast.com. You can also follow us on Instagram @TheTalkThePodcast and thanks always and forever to Jenny, Harry, and Ezra for supporting me in this endeavor, one that has been deeply fulfilling and educational, but has also harvested great swaths of my time and mental energy over the past nine months. Goodbye.